Women in the Church, Part II: Respect?
I'm starting to notice two tendencies, in myself and those around me, in responding to the issue of women in leadership within the church. 1) To think the problem is going to go away, and soon or 2) To acknowledge the problem, but not really give it validity by doing anything to promote change.
I can't help but believe the church is only being hurt by its exclusion of women, so these responses are falling short for me.
If 50% of potential leadership is not being developed or put to use, I'd say we have a very significant problem on our hands.
If I had not moved to
I keep asking myself, what do we look for in a leader? Don't we look for someone who we can learn from, and listen to? A leader is someone we can look up to, because they challenge us, listen to us, and tell us the truth even when we don't want to hear it. Most of all, a leader is someone we can respect.
I can't help but think then, that respect is the fundamental issue in the exclusion of women from church leadership. If women can't be leaders, are we not saying that women cannot be respected by everyone?
Yes, it's more subtle than that, but that doesn't make it less harmful.
I think this addresses the, "Well how big of a problem is this?" attitude. The people that say, "Sure, we need to have more women as leaders, but it's not essential, since they are able to serve and surely God can work through them. Eventually women will most likely play a more equal role, but this isn't a primary concern, or a crisis. When it happens that's good, until then..."
But, if the issue of women in leadership is respect, then we have a crisis. We have a problem of not viewing people the way God sees them. That is serious, is it not?
If the root of the issue is respect, will the disrespect of women simply disappear with a new generation?
I find this hard to believe. If the church is not making a conscious effort to address this, then where will this new found respect come from? I have a hard time imagining it coming from secular society, that gets such a kick out of objectifying women. (Anyone watch a movie lately?)
Fifty percent of men who attended a Promise Keepers stadium event said they had viewed pornography within a week of attending. Fifty-four percent of pastors have viewed porn within the past year. Maybe this is something that the church is merely not challenging in our society, or maybe attitudes in the church are even perpetuating this..I don't know. (A church that excludes women from teaching and leadership, puts less of an emphasis on their minds, and more of an emphasis on their bodies. Again, what are women doing? Taking care of children and serving coffee...You put the pieces together.)
But with statistics like this floating around, I can't really believe people who tell me there isn't a problem with how women are viewed by Christian men.
And maybe not addressing the issue of respect of women in the church, is hurting men just as much as women?
I read a forum about women in the church, and one mother lashed out at another woman (who had claimed that she could be in church leadership). The mother said, "I'm sorry, (name), but my son needs men that are good role models; people he can look up to. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want you leading my son's youth group."
I wish I could have told that mother what her son really needed was some women who were good role models. Women that he could be taught to look up to and respect, and women who could counteract the cesspool of images and ideas about women that culture is going to throw at him.
Either way, I'm starting to believe that this problem is a self-perpetuating mixture of culture and church problems, and a bit too deeply rooted to go away without being consciously changed. Maybe I'm wrong. That would be nice. Or maybe putting women in leadership won't solve the problem, maybe that's just the first step.

8 Comments:
Hey Maria, great post, and your passion makes it even better.
A few things to think about. I think men are objectified just as much as women, but just in different ways. I think our entire culture likes to make everything (including humans) into products. Sex just happens to sell to males, so that makes females products. However, ridiculous standards that men are supposed to "be" not crying, solid emotional rocks, crazy muscle shapes all i think contribute to the productization of humanity in general not just women. Basically we sell whatever gets bought and sex is a big one because men are visually driven, but girls are driven in other ways and the agencies make their money through women also through movies, novels, cosmetics and clothes.
Your home church, is extremely behind the times. Many churches now have open arms to any gender than wants to be used in leadership seeing as they meet the requirements male or female and some people will never change which is why people like you will get frustrated out of your mind because you are a leader and they could care less, in fact even if your brother isn't a leader they would invest in him before you because he has different genitals.
so i guess you are where i was, either choose to look at where you came from, rock the boat fight for what's right and try to make change, or leave peacefully, pray that they are given grace and come around and move forward without them or with them as much as possible in what God has called you to do.
7:42 PM
btw. either option that i listed I don't think is wrong or right, they are just different, it could be very well that you feel called to try to change people from the inside the system, but at the same time many feel called to try to leave and change people from outside the system.
7:44 PM
Good thoughts. Definitely some stuff to add to the mound of stuff to think about.
I didn't mean to be unfair in my focus on women being objectified. If anything, I want to address how both genders are effected by these attitudes. I do not endorce a pity-party attitude. Women do a lot to enforce and perpetuate this system, and I think we're accountable for those actions. Men have struggles, so do women.
But, I'm not sure if I agree that men are as objectified as women, because they've traditionally held a place of power. (Maybe I'm off...but if women don't have as much power, I think it's hard for them to push men to places they don't put themselves...could the "not crying...crazy muscle shapes.." be something men do to eachother? more than something women demand?)
Either way,I don't want, by any means, to undermine their own struggles. Certainly our commercial society, and attitudes is not healthy for anyone, like you were saying.
I wonder if there is more to objectification then product/commercialism/profit though? Like selfishness, power, the need to build one's own security and self esteem? (Maybe you can trace these back to commercial attitudes...) But I tend to think maybe our desire to make everyone into a product is first rooted in our own selfishness? (and other attitudes), rather than rooting our actions (like the objectification of women) in something outside ourselves, like culture. Maybe? I'm just throwing things out here.
I agree with you, there is a struggle with how to address the problem. The past couple years I've had an attitude of, "see you later, I'm not going to waste my time anymore." (In addressing people who want to continue these attitudes). But it's hard when you see people you love effected by it, people who are still in the system.
I don't have trouble rocking the boat of a system that is hurting people. At the same time, I need to always act in love. Tough balance. I guess the balance I'm attempting to strike, as I walk though this, is embracing truth. I don't need to feel like I shoudn't express what I believe to be true, when given the opportunity, just because it'll offend someone.
Honestly, I don't know if I'm trying to change from the inside or the outside...I think I have one foot out, one foot in, and that's just because of where I live/work at different times of the year. I think maybe it's a good place for me to be.
Thanks for stopping by! I want to hear people's thoughts, so I don't just go crazy thinking about these things without any balance of opinion! I tend to be dramatic.
8:43 PM
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9:00 PM
Hi Nathan Colquhoun.
I think when you say, "I think men are objectified just as much as women" you really mean to say 'stereotyped' not 'objectified' and there is an important difference.
Men are stereotyped into roles, like you suggest, which say that they can't cry or show emotions; men are supposed to be handy and aspire to be race car drivers. These are the stereotypes thrust upon our sex by Western society.
Women are also stereotyped. Women are supposed to be compassionate, peaceful; they're not supposed to like fixing cars or getting their hands dirty (unless its with gardening or child-rearing).
Women are also objectified, however, and this is very different. Women, in Western society, can be viewed as objects, things which can be owned or conquered; bought or sold. We can possess them. Here, it is not about what roles a woman is expected to play it is about what value a woman has, and in Western society we say that her value is that of an object.
I don't believe men are viewed in the same way.
Do you see what I'm getting at. Very different concepts, I believe.
9:06 PM
Hey Keith and Maria.
Agree with you totally, I used the wrong words completely to try and get at what I was trying to say. You are right in your corrections. Women definitely have been treated horribly and made into objects that men use for their own use. Good point on the stereo types rather than objectification.
Partly from a western perspective I see humans being the objects of corporations and governments, but from a national perspective, women have become the objects of men.
And Maria you are right, it does all stem from our own selfishness and in not seeing the humans the way they were meant to be seen. In the end I think that both genders struggle with being used by the other (whoever that other is) to accomplish their own means. In some cases its men using women, or the rich using the poor, or the marketers using children. It all stems from thinking that what we want is more important than who they are.
I don't mean to take away from the topic of gender equality, because its an important one, and I partly feel like I was doing that, so I apologize if that's the case I guess I just see this struggle everywhere and my heart always goes out to the oppressed ones because that's where I think God's heart goes.
10:52 PM
Hey! Don't be apologizing. Your point s are valid, and I'm very grateful you took the time to bring them up!
6:25 AM
Hey Maria.
One of the bloggers I read, just realized that they had an entire category on women in ministry, and he's awesome usually, so I thought that you might be interested. He's super good, and he's a bible scholar, and there is almost 50 posts talking about culture here, and in Africa and looking at it biblically. I thought it would help you in formulating your view.
Click here.
2:17 AM
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